An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.

[fay66]

Very nice "C" registered LHD Fulvia 2c Berlina for sale at Richard Thorne's, www.rtcc.co.uk, advertised at £5995, it is also featured in this weeks Classic Car Weekly.
As you may well know I've been trying for sometime to find a build date for "Fay", as she is registered 1/1/1966 on a D plate which meant she must have been built earlier, but when is the question?, so I rang RTCC and asked could they give me the chassis number and first Registration, explaining why I wanted the information.
They very kindly agreed to do so and it was first registered in Italy 29/9/65 with chassis number 818100. 054607, which is 8990 later than "Fays" 818101.045617,  which is considerably earlier, but I'll still keep looking for early 2c's to see if I can get closer, as I'm beginning to think that "Fay" was an early 1965 or even possibly late 1964 build.

Brian
8227

[yemjay]

  I'd also be tempted to buy an Appia, I'd also be tempted to buy an Aprilia; but two weeks ago I acquired my first Lancia, an early S2 coupe Fulvia 1.3s (Mendoza blue & known as Lulu), and I won't be looking over my shoulder at other models for some time as it's proving the perfect daily driver.  We've covered about a thousand miles together in the fortnight, including attending the GNW, and having read Alan's helpful but scary information about salt I'll be rushing straight out after breakfast to give Lulu Mendoza a very thorough shampoo.

This may be irrelevant if you're considering a berlina, which sounds likely; and given my short experience of Fulvia ownership, I offer my observations with apologies for youthful inexperience (not a claim I can easily make in any other capacity).  If, like myself, you require an A-road aristocrat and B-road beauty the Fulvia's surely hard to beat.  Away from the motorway, the coupe is more rewarding than any other car I've owned (Minor 1000, 205 gti, Porsche 944 & 968cs). It sounds as good as it drives, and I particularly enjoy the 1.3 Fulvia's willingness to make the most of its high revving small capacity engine, which together with confident brakes and impeccable handling makes it capable of tackling fast twisty downhill country roads with as much aplomb (if not nearly so quick) as my brother's Elise (but unlike me he can't fit a golf bag, trolley, and haversack in the boot).  I've read that the Fulvia berlina is an even more satisfying drive, but unless you need the extra passenger space why deny yourself the pleasure of the coupe's svelten lines?

Regarding winter driving, my grandmother's neighbour drove an S3 Fulvia coupe for ten years as her only car, she was a careful owner who washed her car before putting it in the garage, and it looked almost as good when she sold it ...  Nevertheless I'll be driving my Polo during the winter months.

I look forward to reading more about your deliberations and wish you luck in your search for an Appia or a Fulvia; or perhaps an Aprilia or a Flavia, but with all due respects to David I'd question the choice of a Gamma as a daily driver (too young to spoil).

Michael.

Well gentlemen, what a lot of advice, it all started out so positive and then suddenly there was the rust situation and the suggestions that neither would make a suitable everyday car for the whole year, but I do get the feeling there is support for both vehicles for use in the summer months.

I really am so grateful for the advice because I now have something to mull over. I already own a 'beater' (thank you Alan for introducing me to that term), my late mother's 1992 Citroen ZX, one owner, 34000 miles,  on a SORN for 3yrs, time to get that up and running and then a ......... ?

I am tending towards an Appia, but can't really identify why, we will see.

Thank you again for the advice and comments, time will tell !!

                     Andy

[davidwheeler]

I had an Appia Vignale Convertibili which I ran both as domestic and Practice car for a year or more and now I have some Fulvias.  The Appia is a proper Lancia with crisp handling and lovely direct steering.  It also bowled down to Cornwall from Carlisle at a steady 75 without missing a beat. The Fulvia is front wheel drive, holds the road very well but the steering is low geared and frankly sloppy and vague by comparison.  For pure enjoyment, an Appia every time.  I wish I had one but would get too much noise from the distaff side if I added another car to the collection.  Besides, the Aprilia is now going again and I had some great fun yesterday running round the moderns on a roundabout.  Sliding pillars for ever!

[DavidLaver]

Ah - but not all Fulvias were created equal - what one was it?

As for Appias I looked this out again just now.  About 1.45 and just before 5mins for the Appia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGObixYOTOI

David

[thecolonel]

I think you just wanted to show the Gamma again (2.20)

[DavidLaver]

The Gamma does sound delicious.

With the Appia its the surprise at how it goes relative to expectation.  There's also the surprise at the quality under the bonnet.  Opening a back door would always remain an occasion.  Here in the suburbs I think the Appia would provide more day to day delight than the Gamma that would always feel "on the leash" and not really feel happy until clear of the M25.  Where my parents live in the fens the Gamma's legs ride and poise would make a real difference.  Perhaps a Fulvia is that compromise that keeps so many people happy somewhere in between?

Then there's always a 2WD Delta HF to ponder...

David

[the.cern]

Well gentlemen, the deed is done, I am now the proud (very proud) owner of an Appia S2.

I collected it from the Bristol area yesterday (could it be coincidence that my wife is away in Umbria for a week !!!!!!!) and I have not stopped smiling ....that is about buying the Appia, not the absence of my wife, honestly !!!!!!!!

Thank you everyone for your comments and advice about the comparative virtues of these two models. Having read and digested it all, I am certain that the Appia better fits the bill. I expect most of my mileage will be urban rather than rural and the feel of the Appia, the build quality and the sheer uniqueness of the model mean that all my expectations will be met. Having said that, my 150 mile drive home  yesterday along the M4, M25 and A127  was excellent. Being new to me, I didn't want to push the car and the first 100mls was done at around 60mph, then a lovely session at about 65/70 followed by the tedium of the A127 at 55. Oil pressure and engine temperature were exactly what one would want, even in the inevitable queue for an accident on the M25 and at 65mph, the car responded readily when accelerated to overtake another vehicle. The exhaust note is great, helped I'm sure by the stainless steel system, so I have a car that  looks great, sounds great and the way it goes belies its looks !!!!

Once again, thank you you everyone who has advised (and cautioned) me and hopefully I will see some or all of you at events through the summer.

If you want to see the car, please look for the Appia (the only one) present at the Auto Italia day at Brooklands, to be found on the Forum in 'events' .

Finally, thank you to Ben who so kindly and graciously sold to me one of his collection.

                                     Andy

[DavidLaver]

Well done!!

Was looking over an SII and the consortium van at VSCC Wiscombe Park yesterday.  I never realised that the back doors had an over centre action to shut themselves from half way closed and to fully open from half way open.  All "one finger light" as well.  An absolutely delightful thing end to end.

David

[the.cern]

Well, here's a little update ................

I am 'APPy with the APPia but
I am un'APPy with the APPendectomy I had on Monday !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The only saving grace of the appendectomy is that it was free !!

Now to the important stuff .........

the pulling brakes are due to the front nearside snatching on a fluid leak, cause yet to be determined, I was making the hub puller when the appendix struck !!

we had a little breakdown last Thursday, it stalled and would not re-start. Casting my brain back to dim and distant times when all cars had carburettors and coils and points and etc I tried to remember how to test things. After a lot of faffing (in the first rain we've seen for about 5 weeks) it seemed that the 'no spark' problem was down to the points which were 'wiped' successfully with an emery board.

Having joined the Appia Consortium literally the previous evening, I phoned Don (the magic man) who said "yes, I've got points", so the subscription form, cheque and the points cheque all went off together. The points arrived on Saturday, together with the appendix pain !!!!!!!!!!!!

Now all I have to do is wait for the swelling and pain to subside before attacking these minor misdemeanours. I'm not allowed to drive for at least 2 weeks so I  hope to be well prepared if not finished with the tasks in time for the return to driving.

I'll  keep you up-dated, hopefully just about the Appia and not about any further bodily failures !!

                            Andy

[Charles]

Hi Andy, as an Appia owner, I followed the discussion on this thread with interest but did not add any comments as, not having driven Fulvias much, my opinion is biased.  I am sure that you will not regret your decision, however.  I think that my Appia makes me smile more than any of my other Lancias.  It demands to be driven well and this is part of what makes it so rewarding.  They are little gems.  One point about your stalling/starting problem is that I have an electric fuel pump on mine which I use just to start so as not to have to wait for the mechanical pump to do it's stuff, it makes starting instantaneous.  I have noticed, however, that after prolonged stop start driving my engine can suddenly stall unless I switch the electric pump on for a couple of seconds.  Presumably, the mechanical pump is getting a bit tired and at very slow speeds fails to keep the engine properly supplied.

[the.cern]

Charles, thank you for your comments, I am hopeful my problem is only the points and may be readily sorted now I have the part.

Fortunately my car has come equipped with an electric fuel pump, located I know not where, that is switched via what is normally the heater fan switch. Ben, from whom I bought the car, said he always left it switched on and I have determined to follow his practice, unless someone can justify a change.

I should not have made my flippant comment about 'further bodily failures' as I have a slight complication which will slow me down for a little longer than I had hoped, but I am determined to attack the brakes and points at the earliest opportunity and am really looking forward to getting behind the wheel again. I really do understand your comment about the your Appia making you smile, I have felt like a Cheshire cat every time I've driven mine !!!

Regards,

             Andy

[fay66]

Andy,
I have an electric pump fitted adjacent to the fuel tank but I only use it to prime my dellorto's as I still have the mechanical pump, unless the mechanical pump has been removed I see no reason for leaving the electric pump on, can anyone explain if there is any advantage to doing so?
As my 2c is a series one car it doesn't have the fuel return pipes of the later cars, so I think that might also cause a problem if the electric pump is left switched on, although it's comforting to have the belt available in case the braces ever fail.

Brian
8227

[davidwheeler]

I have fitted an electric pump to my Aprilia but also a pressure regulating Filter King ("made in Italy") so I do not get flooding.  Don't know if such things are still available, I bought it nearly 40 years ago!

[fay66]

I have fitted an electric pump to my Aprilia but also a pressure regulating Filter King ("made in Italy") so I do not get flooding.  Don't know if such things are still available, I bought it nearly 40 years ago!

David,
Filter King is still available from Demon Tweeks.

Brian
8227

[GG]

Fuel pressure is one of the bugaboos of these motors - its important to check the mech'l pump pressure on its own. While it should be around 2.5-4 psi (check the specs for differing models), they can vary immensely. We went through 3-4 of these pumps to get one that was right on target for an Aurelia. Fuel pressure has a lot to do with how these car run.

The electric pumps can be run in series with the mech'l, and used for priming (quicker starts for sure) and for high speed runs if necessary. They can be set for approrpriate pressures, or regulated through an in-line regulator. Too much pressure can put load on the diaphragm (if its running through the mech'l pump) and serves no benefit.

The purpose of the return pipe is probably for percolation, when the hot engine boils the gas in the carbs and it flows into the intake throats. On the Aurelia and Flaminia there are little drain pipes for this - I have no idea if they were ever effective. However, I added a return line in a T junction just off the fuel feed by the carb on a B24, and it alleviated this problem entirely, even in its slightly compromised placement. The pressure build up in the carb from the boiling gas has a place to flow.... instead of pushing by the needle valve.

The percolation issue is no trivial item. In Arizona, in the mid-1970's there was a 3C Flaminia that drained its carbs into the motor, and a small backfire led to a fire in the engine bay - luckily the fire extinguisher in the car put it out. Hot starts led to  backfires in a B24 motor a couple of years ago, and the drain back from the carbs put that all to rest. Now the B24 starts up hot as if it were cold, no hassles.

In short, control the fuel pressure, and install a return feed or some way to alleviate the gas overflow. Or don't drive when its hot.